Thank you Christie Tate for joining me on my podcast!
Learn how to be your own B.F.F. -A Memoir of Friendship Lost and Found from Christie Tate! I also loved her first book, GROUP, you can read about it here.
Christie Tate is a Chicago-based writer and essayist. She has been published in The New York Times (Modern Love), The Rumpus, The Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, McSweeney’s Internet Tendency, Eastern Iowa Review, and elsewhere. Kiese Laymon selected her essay, Promised Lands, as the winner of the New Ohio Review’s nonfiction contest, which was published Fall 2019.
FROM OUR INTERVIEW
Lisa Niver:
Good morning. This is Lisa Niver from We Said Go Travel and I’m so honored and excited to be speaking today with New York Times Best Selling Author and Reese’s Book Club author, Christie Tate. Hello.
Christie Tate:
Hi. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Lisa Niver:
Oh, my goodness, it is such an honor. I have loved both your books so, so much and I would love if you could talk a little bit to my audience about Group because I just loved how you shared what an incredible process it is to be in group therapy and how challenging it is, and just all the questions that came up for you. So, tell people about how did that happen that you wrote a whole book about how strangers saved your life in therapy.
Christie Tate:
I wrote Group over the period of five years and I knew I was going to write about it when I had originally gone to therapy because I was very, very lonely and I was very, very concerned that I was going to die alone, The way that I talk about it — I want a boyfriend, but what I was trying to say is I want a life, I want a family, I want people to be close to me but I was scared and I didn’t know how, and I didn’t have a lot of money. And I was a law student and I ended up in group therapy for two main reasons.
One was a good friend of mine had changed and I saw a light go on in her eyes and I thought– what is it? And she said, it’s my therapist, I do group. And I was like, ewe, group. And then she told me the price and group is–because you share the circle with other people and divide up the time– it was a lot cheaper and that appealed to my budget. And when I got there the therapist told me, if you want to work on relationships, if you want to build up intimacy, if you want to change your life, group is the way to do it, and he was so sure and so confident, and I was the opposite of that. I was buying single funeral plots and I was 27 years old.
I decided to hear the call and I did originally think– I’ll do this for a year and then when I become a lawyer and make the big bucks then I’ll go get a real therapist and do real therapy, but it turned out I understood how potent it was within the first three months and I stuck around, and my life changed dramatically and I could see the arc of what it had done to me.
It reminded me, this is a very audacious claim, but Cheryl Strayed’s Wild, her life changed as she walked the Pacific Crest Trail. It changed, she mourned, she grieved, she learned, she met herself out there, and that’s what happened to me in therapy except I just went back and forth to this little office in downtown Chicago, back and forth to therapy, and I thought, maybe someone else would like to know that this is possible, and that’s why I wrote the book.
Lisa Niver:
That’s so beautiful. I have been in group therapy and I understand what you’re saying, and I think, especially in this time where we’re still continuing on the COVID coaster, which I know is a lot about your second book which we’ll get to, but that people are really searching for how to get help…
Christie Tate:
Yeah.
Lisa Niver:
…and that’s really important to bring up — that therapy can be expensive.
Christie Tate:
Yeah, real expensive, and I was not in a position where I felt like I could wait. It was the beginning of my second year of law school so, I have all of second year and all of third year before I would have a full law job. I felt very precarious mentally and emotionally and I had started to have fantasies about how I might end my life and I thought I can’t wait two years I need something now and I don’t have any money so, what do I do?
Group therapy is not free, I had to take out extra loans and I just banked on it working and that my mental health had to become a priority because I scared myself, and I’m obviously very glad I did. But none of those decisions are easy and I wanted to story them because a lot of people are in that position every single day.
Lisa Niver:
It’s so true. We keep hearing in the news about people where we’re so shocked that someone has taken their life and there are really hard situations for people, and in Group you talk about feeling like a misfit and feeling alone and the loneliness, but you also you tell funny stories. Can you say a little bit about the breaking of the plates? I love that one.
Christie Tate:
Well, yes. I am very, very dramatic. I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, I’m a very sensitive person and I feel things really, really deeply, and once I got into group it became safe for me to really explore the full extent of my rage, my loneliness, my sorrow, and my terror which I’d just been shoving down, and I had disordered eating which contributed to more repression, and when I got to group I had a full permission slip from my therapist and my group get it out. Let’s play full out.
I went through a breakup, it was very, very upsetting, and I was extra upset because I thought I’m a good girl. I go to group, I do the work, I’m emotionally working on myself, why did this man I loved so much break up with me? I was horrified that those things could still happen to someone who was in mental health treatment, which is absurd but that’s what I thought, and he dropped me off after telling me I was not the one and I was devastated, and I just picked every single dish out of my cabinet and threw it on the floor.
And that’s an expensive way to do rage, and then I was ashamed. Then I thought what have I done? I have no glasses, I have no plates, I have no platters. I threw a Thanksgiving platter on the floor that I had bought at Walgreens for 9.99, and what do I do? And I wanted to not be alone with the explosion of it all so, I put all the pieces in a bag and I took it to group and I put it in the middle of the floor between all the chairs and I said this is what I did, and it’s messy.
Coming to life and getting into rage and going all out in your emotions is really messy and I can’t be the only one…maybe I’m the only one who’s broken all my dishes, but I can’t be the only one who’s been surprised by the intensity of what I was holding onto. No wonder I was bulimic for years– a lot was going on inside of me. If I don’t have a way to get it out, bad things happen.
Lisa Niver:
I think it’s really so courageous of you to share the actual stories. I’m working on a memoir and I know for myself sometimes writing some of the pieces…I literally used to write until I was pretty sure I was going to throw up and then I would lie on the floor.
Christie Tate:
Yes. Yes. People always ask me if it’s cathartic to write and I think that’s one word for it, but it is a reliving. It is a reliving, even though there’s a part of my brain that’s crafting and it’s making an object of my experiences on the page, but my soul is reliving it and it is extremely intense, and I have such a high regard for all memoirs for that exact reason because I know what it feels like and it is not for the faint of heart.
Lisa Niver:
It is not for the faint of heart, but you struck a chord with so many people. As I said, you’re a New York Times Best Selling Author, you’re in the club with Reese Witherspoon books, you were Amazon Best Books so, when the book came out, of course, you hoped you would reach people, but what happened when you were on the list of everybody?
Christie Tate:
It was such a huge surprise. I live in Chicago so, I’m not steeped in publishing. I read very widely, I’m a very enthusiastic reader, but I was new at being an author and I was a full-time lawyer when the book came out and so, I didn’t understand what was about to happen. I knew it was a huge deal that Reese Witherspoon was going to put her name on my book, and I was thrilled, just beyond, I’ve never felt anything quite like that, certainly not professionally.
I had no idea how many people would write to me with all kinds of feedback and sharing with me their therapy stories which I hold so closely to my heart, and some people were like, your therapist is a terrible person, and I accept that. I accept that people have very strong feelings about mental health treatment. Mostly what I wanted my book to do was shine a light for anybody who had money problems or individual wasn’t working for them.
But also let’s have more discussion. Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about what works and what might work for one person and not another because every single conversation peels back a little bit of stigma. So, in terms of what happened. I still get letters from readers and people are still discovering the book and it is the greatest joy, it is such a joy. My biggest dream for my book is I hoped one day I would be shopping in Costco and I would see it next to Obama’s book or something, and so, this has exploded all of my bucket list dreams.
Lisa Niver:
I was just in the lobby of Simon and Schuster and I saw your new book right there in the display case! So, you decided to write another book.
Christie Tate:
Yeah, I did. Even before Group was published, even before I had a book deal, I knew I wanted to write about friendship because Group is really all about how I straightened out romantically. I had a lot of work to do along the dealing with early trapped trauma and eating stuff, but really I thought where’s my boyfriend, I want a husband, I want a family, I’m getting old — that’s the engine of Group.
But I really have also done a lot of work around female friendship and that had nothing to do with the boyfriend and the husband. I really wanted to tell those stories in part because I had been crippled all my life by the idea that friendship is if you’re a girl and the right kind of girl, friendship is easy, and you have lifelong friends and you have pods and you vacation with all your friends. I’m a little bit ill at ease in social relationships and I wanted to write about some of my own bad behavior, ghosting and being neurotic and insecure. I know I’m not the only person and I wanted to write in tribute to the notion of the work we do to get straight romantically can also be done in our friendships.
Lisa Niver:
Yes. So, you named your book B.F.F., Best Friends Forever, and I think one of the things you wrote that really spoke to me was about how one life can alter another, that friendships change us, but also that it felt like you were missing this secret code.
Christie Tate:
Yes. I remember being in kindergarten–very young, watching other girls, and maybe it was my community or just my particular vision, but I felt like other girls were best friends and their moms were friends and they did stuff on the weekends, and they were really embedded in each other’s lives, and it looks like they were held so closely in their friendships, and I had no idea how to do that.
I had no clue. My mom didn’t have friendships like that and neither did my dad, and I didn’t have the language at age 5, 6, 7 to express longing like that, and I didn’t have the skills. I did not know what it meant to be a good friend, and so, I had to make every mistake. I had to experiment with social climbing and then getting dumped and then dumping friends for a boy, and all of the things you’re not supposed to do. I had to do them. Part of the work that I’m interested in as much as getting married is how to build a community.
That’s something that I’m still interested in to this day. I haven’t cracked the code just because I wrote a book about it and I’m better than I used to be. I believe it’s my life’s work to keep working on this.
Lisa Niver:
One of the things that I see in Group and in the B.F.F. book is you talk about the triangles mother and sister or you have a friend and they have a friend and can we all be friends. The triangles, whether at work… the work wife or the work spouse. But I think all that plays into it and of course, now we’re all managing all this on social, too.
Christie Tate:
Oh, yes. it’s so painful. My children are in middle school and they have their own relationships, too, friendships and social media, and they’ll see things…like, it’s just like they’ll see things that will hurt their feelings, they’re not involved, and I will say to them, me, too. Everyone’s in a writing conference and I’m not there and I wasn’t invited, that’s how it feels, and it upends me and it takes me down, and I don’t have…I mean, I wish I had the wisdom for my kids.
What I strive to have is like, balance for myself, for my own soul, my own peace of mind, and when I first started telling people I was writing about female friendship, this woman I didn’t know at a reading for Group turned to me and she said, you better be writing about triangles. And I just laughed because I’m like, women know. If you say friendship triangle to a woman, they’re like, very unstable, very unstable. I’m like, exactly. Exactly.
And as you mentioned, I grew up with a mom and a sister. We also had a brother, but like, the females formed this triangle and I always viewed myself as on the outs, and that infected all my friendships because I was sure I was going to be pushed out, and I had to work through that as an adult in order to form healthy relationships.
Lisa Niver:
And I loved what you said about the inspiration. You said, “broken bones and irreparable rifts belonged in middle school but not motherhood” and you worked to repair several key relationships.
Christie Tate:
Yes. I was really interested in that and, I was embarrassed that I had gotten to be in my 40s and I was still so envious of other people’s success or their bodies or their hair. It felt so shameful. I was supposed to be a feminist and I had been in recovery and therapy all these years. I was a mother and I was so ashamed of my behavior, and what I had learned, thank goodness through all the work, was while keeping it to myself is never going to work. It’s just not going to work. Pretending it’s not there, also a failure. And so, what if I start writing about this, talking about this.
And what the great blessing I got is one of my friends that I knew from recovery tapped me on the shoulder and said, you know, I think we have a lot in common and I think it’s time for both of us to work on friendships. And I had just settled down with my about-to-be husband and I thought, oh, my God, can you let me catch my breath from being so sad about being single, and she said– no. Let’s go. And I agreed, so that is what is remarkable.
I also wanted to put this story out in the world because in Group there is an Ivy league-trained therapist and he’s crazy and he’s exotic and he takes up a lot of space, and with B.F.F. it was me and a friend. We were both bungling along and we decided to help each other. We don’t have degrees, we didn’t pay each other, we just decided, let’s stop telling ourselves we stink at friendship and let’s do something different and let’s do it together, and our lives changed.
Lisa Niver:
Yes. The power of committing to another person to try to be better.
Christie Tate:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s kind of that simple and that hard all at the same time.
Lisa Niver:
It is very hard and very simple, I agree with you. How can people can come find you? I know you’ve been on a book tour…
Christie Tate:
Yes.
Lisa Niver:
…but tell people, I know you’ve been having…you can’t be uninvited when you run the workshop so, tell people they can come work with you.
Christie Tate:
Yes. Yes. I’ve started doing some writing workshops and they’ve been just amazing, the most amazing people have come forth and they want to write their stories, and I really only write about relationships so, I thought, let’s do it together. Let’s get in a room together and tackle the hard ones, especially those people we think we’ll have to wait until they die before I can write about them, and let’s do this together.
So, I’ll be doing something in the Hudson Valley in fall of 2023, and then right after MLK Jr day in January of 2024 I’m going to have a second annual event in Palm Springs that’ll span Monday to Friday. We did that before and it was a really wonderful experience. So, I try to draw people who might want to get to the sunshine in January because I live in Chicago, that’s what I want. Check my website for the dates and signup. I would love to see any new faces.
Lisa Niver:
And tell people, your website name is…
Christie Tate:
My website is christietate.com.
Lisa Niver:
And can people find you on social media? Where do you hang out and share wisdom?
Christie Tate:
All the wisdom comes down on Instagram and my Instagram is christieotate I’m usually there posting all kinds of whatever’s going on, and would love to have any kind of reader engagement. It brings me great joy.
Lisa Niver:
And I know on your website people can find if their book club is reading Group, you have a whole book club guide?
Christie Tate:
Yes. The best way, if you want me to Zoom in or if you’re local to me, I’m happy to come by. It’s so fun to go to a book club. What I love about book clubs is people are not afraid to say, I have this in this issue. Like, I don’t mind that engagement, it’s so brave for readers to look me in the eye and go like, I really hated this. And I’m like, awesome. I want to hear more about it, like, you don’t have to like all my stuff.
Anyway, I find that really invigorating and brave. So, it reminds me of group therapy. And yeah, so, email me. There’s a form on my website, you can reach out to me and we can set something up.
Lisa Niver:
That’s so amazing. So, people can read your book and they can learn more about you, and the book is also an audio book?
Christie Tate:
Yes. Both books appear in the audio format. Right now B.F.F. is just in hardback, but you can also get it on Libra, I think that’s the Indie book store version of Audible, but of course, Audible as well and hardback, and then Group is available in all the formats, and several different languages if you are not an English speaker.
Lisa Niver:
Oh, wow. That’s so exciting.
Christie Tate:
Yeah. It’s pretty fun.
Lisa Niver:
And what happens once you’re in the Reese Witherspoon Book Club, do you guys have chats with the other authors or…
Christie Tate:
Yeah. You know, it’s a real bonding experience because Reese and her company, Hello Sunshine, and the Reese’s Book Club, they’re really good to their authors and they have give aways and like, online events, and there’s a really wonderful app that anybody can join, but you can find out, you know, what the new book picks are. We don’t get to find out early but a bunch of us have bonded who were like, around each other and there’s a sense of camaraderie, and there was talk in 2020 about like, one day doing a retreat with everyone and I’m just like, holding my breath waiting for that because how amazing would that be like, oh, my gosh. So, hopefully one day that will come to pass.
Lisa Niver:
Yes, and before we go, I’d love for you to just talk a little bit, I think that being in the COVID coaster that it’s been such a hard time for people feeling lonely and alienated, and obviously book club is a good way to get together, and I think some of the inspiration for your friendship forensics was COVID so, I don’t know if you could speak a little bit to about how you…I don’t know if it’s the right thing to say, turned the corner during COVID, or for reconnecting that you can share a couple tips for what could people do if they’re just feeling like everything’s so hard right now for them.
Cover reveal! Memoir coming October 2020. @AvidReaderPress pic.twitter.com/w1ZX1agVzE
— Christie Tate (@ChristieOTate) April 28, 2020
Christie Tate:
Yeah. I definitely agree with that. There’s two things I feel that are manageable starting points, right, because you can’t build a community in one dinner, and that’s so overwhelming. One thing is, I’ve started calling friends when they pop into my mind, even if I only have five minutes, I just call them up and I say, I’ve got seven minutes until I pick up my daughter or until the pasta boils and I wanted to say hi. What can you tell me in seven minutes, what can you tell me about your life? What do I need to know about what’s new and exciting in your life, and I’ve never had anybody say unless you have 45 minutes we are not talking.
I mean, everyone’s busy, everyone’s crunched so, there’s something about the little snatches of time that I used to just stand in the kitchen. Maybe I would be scrolling making myself miserable low key and stirring the pasta, and now I can have a connection — the idea that it has to be so long has crippled me, right?
And the other thing for me is I’m very scared to initiate socially. I have lots of reasons and I’m working on that, but one thing that’s been very helpful is when I hear an invitation…because lots of invitations come my way that I used to just bat away or not hear in some psychological way, what if I just said yes? I just give myself the goal to say yes. If someone says, we should do lunch, I pull out my calendar and say, what about this day? Now, I may not be the person who’s really good at saying, we should go to coffee, but what I can do is hear the bid for connection and then take it up and keep carrying it.
And once I realize how often people are offering to connect, I realize it was all right in front of me. It’s really right in front of me and I bet that’s true for lots of people, even as isolated as we are, we’re still on the COVID coaster. My community is still extremely…there’s places in my community where we’re still masking so, I get it. It is not easy, but when someone would say, oh, I would like to go on a walk and be like, I would love to walk Saturday morning. Just follow it up, and if you’re walking anyway, why not, right?
So, those two things. Start somewhere and five-minute phone calls. That has been really, really enriched my social connections.
Lisa Niver:
Now I’m wondering if the next book is called Five-Minute Phone Calls.
Christie Tate:
Oh, I like the way you think.
Lisa Niver:
I am so appreciative that you spent this time with us and I know that your books have meant so much to me and so much to other people so, thank you for walking through all the shame and pain and tears to share your incredible story and really help people. Thank you.
Christie Tate:
Thank you, Lisa. This has been a total joy.
Learn how to be your own B.F.F. -A Memoir of Friendship Lost and Found from Christie Tate! I also loved her first book, GROUP, you can read about it here.
MAKE YOUR OWN MAP: Lisa Niver’s Podcast
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